Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html

If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news broadcasters
at least partially responsible.

> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?

No.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
...
> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html
>
> If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news broadcasters
> at least partially responsible.

They won't even feel bad about it, because now they will have an even bigger
story to report.

"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
...
> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html
>
> If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news
> broadcasters at least partially responsible.

I'd like to offer an alternate opinion on this if I may.

Although I sympathize with your feelings, and nobody detests the press
more than I do, I have to disagree with what you are saying.
It's very easy for good decent people to fall into this trap. What
happens is that the more you lean in a direction like this, the more you
lean away from the issue of personal responsibility.
It's not the press who has the laser, it's the person who pointed it and
shot it at the cockpit.
You NEVER want to lose sight of this perspective. To do so, is to play
right into the hands of defense trail lawyers, who know all too well
that they can tear this reasoning apart easily.
If the press is responsible, or even partially responsible for someone
pointing a laser into a cockpit simply because they reported it, then
every woman who has been raped because she wore an attractive dress is
guilty as well; and that's where decent people who care about these
things like yourself make a HUGE mistake if they begin seeing things as
you are seeing them here.
As rotten as the press is, and I think we all agree on THAT issue, it's
their job to report these incidents. In fact, it's actually a good thing
that incidents like this ARE reported so we can take action against
those doing these things.
It's true that there are nut cases out there who could be prompted to
use a laser on an airliner because they read about it in a newspaper,
but taking on the newspaper instead of the criminal isn't the solution;
that is unless you want to have no free press, and allow someone
pointing a laser in a cockpit to blame their action on something other
than their own desire to point it and fire it!
The day we lose the concept of personal responsibility in the United
States, is the day the trial lawyers win the entire shooting match.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> It's true that there are nut cases out there who could be prompted to
> use a laser on an airliner because they read about it in a newspaper,
> but taking on the newspaper instead of the criminal isn't the solution;
> that is unless you want to have no free press, and allow someone
> pointing a laser in a cockpit to blame their action on something other
> than their own desire to point it and fire it!

People here have already (appropriately) drawn and quartered the subject.
What they are taking to task now is the willfully igroant and irresponsible
(see: sensationalizing) media.

> The day we lose the concept of personal responsibility in the United
> States, is the day the trial lawyers win the entire shooting match.

We already have. We're strong enough to endure the damage, but the flow is
inexorably downward and there are too many parasites interworking their
magic to abate the trend.

Sorry, I wish it were otherwise.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

> It's true that there are nut cases out there who could be prompted to
> use a laser on an airliner because they read about it in a newspaper,

There you go.

> but taking on the newspaper instead of the criminal isn't the
> solution; that is unless you want to have no free press, and allow
> someone pointing a laser in a cockpit to blame their action on
> something other than their own desire to point it and fire it!

The issue is the people doing these acts aren't exactly mentally mature, and
hearing about people doing this on the news gives them an idea that they
WOULDN'T have had otherwise. The media can certainly control and be
RESPONSIBLE for what they print.

How would you feel if you walked into your kid's room and saw him on the
floor with his arm blown off from building an explosive from plans he saw in
a newspaper? Which party do you believe had the onus of responsibility?

Of course this all started with the government's brilliant issuing of a
bulletin it could happen. Nice self fulfilling prophecy there.
"Terrorist groups overseas have expressed interest in using these devices
against human sight," the bulletin said. "The U.S. intelligence community
has no specific or credible evidence that terrorists intend to use lasers to
target pilots in the homeland."

> The day we lose the concept of personal responsibility in the United
> States, is the day the trial lawyers win the entire shooting match.

Send the laser people to hell. Just don't make it even easier for them to
become one.

"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
...
> The issue is the people doing these acts aren't exactly mentally mature,
> and hearing about people doing this on the news gives them an idea that
> they WOULDN'T have had otherwise. The media can certainly control and be
> RESPONSIBLE for what they print.

Using that logic, we'd never hear about any bad news. Not that *I*
personally would necessarily mind that, but it does seem to be the primary
bread and butter for journalism to report bad news.

Like it or not, the media reports on any number of things that could be
copied by immature and/or stupid people. That's their job. It doesn't make
it their fault when someone else decides to do the same thing.

The airplane/laser story has shown up occasionally, and of course with the
recent arrest, a little more often. But around here, the "bad news"
reported is mostly car chases, armed robberies, and assault cases. All of
which are just as likely, or perhaps more so, to be emulated by someone
exposed to the news. I don't see you guys complaining about the news media
reporting *those* stories. Why not? They are much more common, much easier
to imitate, and much more likely to result in bodily harm to someone.

> How would you feel if you walked into your kid's room and saw him on the
> floor with his arm blown off from building an explosive from plans he saw
> in a newspaper? Which party do you believe had the onus of
> responsibility?

The party who had primary responsibility would be the hypothetical "you".
The parent who failed to properly educate his child on avoiding losing an
arm to explosives, and who apparently had no clue that their child was
gathering the necessary materials to build an explosive device. A close
second in line would be the kid who was so deficient mentally that, in spite
of having the technical wherewithal to actually build a bomb, didn't have
enough of a clue to take the necessary precautions that would help him avoid
bodily harm (the primary precaution being to just NOT DO THAT). Way down at
the bottom of the list would be the source of the plans for the explosives.

That said, it's not like the news media is printing plans for how to build a
laser, or instructions on how to target and track an airplane with a laser,
or even names and phone numbers of sources for lasers that could be used in
these attacks. Your analogy is pretty far off base, even if it did prove
the point you're trying to make (which it doesn't, not even close).

Pete

> Of course this all started with the government's brilliant issuing of
a
> bulletin it could happen. Nice self fulfilling prophecy there.

Of course, it's equally likely that an FBI agent heard a report of a
(kid's) laser shining at a plane, and came up with his own warning of
terrorists doing it. And the whole thing took on a life of its own
when other dumb citizens did it.

It's understandable for people with a new laser / light to simply be
stupid and aim it at planes, cars, neighbors, trees, etc. Heck, if you
had a new spotlight, wouldn't you shine it around a little just to see
what you could see? In the past, this would've just been what it is,
stupid. But with the coincidental FBI warning, it suddenly has becaome
a Patriot Act offense... which is legal overkill.

The only good thing about the press talking about it is that now
perhaps some good people will NOT aim at a plane, because they now
realize what kind of trouble it could get them into.

Cheers, Kev

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message >

> What happens is that the more you lean in a direction like this, the more
> you lean away from the issue of personal responsibility.
> It's not the press who has the laser, it's the person who pointed it and
> shot it at the cockpit.
< snip >
> As rotten as the press is, and I think we all agree on THAT issue, it's
> their job to report these incidents. In fact, it's actually a good thing
> that incidents like this ARE reported so we can take action against those
> doing these things.
> It's true that there are nut cases out there who could be prompted to use
> a laser on an airliner because they read about it in a newspaper, but
> taking on the newspaper instead of the criminal isn't the solution; that
> is unless you want to have no free press, and allow someone pointing a
> laser in a cockpit to blame their action on something other than their own
> desire to point it and fire it!

The press has failed the public by not investigating the claims. (Nothing
new here.) The pilot who claims to have suffered permanent eye damage is,
likely, lying or deluded. Pilots claiming that they were momentarily
blinded by a 5mw hand held laser pointer at a range of miles are lying or
crazy. It's a non-issue. It's hype. It's presented in an unbalanced
manner for the purpose of instilling fear (which sells more media). The
idiot in NY was charged under the Patriot Act! Hello??? Has anyone,
outside of the forum, heard any information from any credible source telling
them there's nothing to worry about? I suspect that this is the issue the
original poster meant to raise.

hd

These are tests of aiming devices for shoulder fired missles.


"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
...
> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html
>
> If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news broadcasters
> at least partially responsible.
>
>

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message

> These are tests of aiming devices for shoulder fired missles.

At least someone's got a sense of humour about this. (I assume...)

le moo
>
>
> "Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html
>>
>> If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news
>> broadcasters at least partially responsible.
>>
>>
>
>

No humor intended. I think some of these people doing this could
indeed be testing their ability to track aircraft with them. I'm sure
there's
some copy cats .. but the whole thing makes me a little uneasy.


"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
> "OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
>
> > These are tests of aiming devices for shoulder fired missles.
>
> At least someone's got a sense of humour about this. (I assume...)
>
> le moo
> >

"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message ...
> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/laser.beams.aircraft.ap/index.html
>
> If there's a laser related aircraft incident, I hold the news broadcasters at least partially responsible.
>
>

The story is not from CNN, it is from AP (Associated Press)

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
...
> No humor intended. I think some of these people doing this could
> indeed be testing their ability to track aircraft with them. I'm sure
> there's
> some copy cats .. but the whole thing makes me a little uneasy.

Nope. Think about it. How does the sighting device know the relative
velocity of the target? Shooting a missile at a target a mile away is
nothing like shooting a rifle at a target a couple hundred metres away.
Factor in a potential relative lateral velocity of zero to over a hundred
m/s and there's no way. I'm not a weapons expert by any means. But I
really doubt that shoulder type rocket launchers would use this type of
sighting. (Unless, like guided bombs, the missile could follow the beam.)
IIRC, SAM missiles, including portable ones, are heat-seeking. Relax.

moo

I would agree that it is the duty of the press to report what is
happening in the world around us - and it would be just great
if they could be objective in all cases. But as we all know, they
all too often sensationalize occurrences for their own benefit.
I believe that this does tend to produce copycat crimes. Should
we blame the press for pushing these unstable folks over the
edge? Probably not. But I do believe that many would never have
gotten the idea but for the excesses of journalism. As an example
I would suggest the rash of airline hijackings that occurred back
in the '60s.

David Johnson

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...] But as we all know, they
> all too often sensationalize occurrences for their own benefit.

All too often? I'd say they do it pretty much every time.

> I believe that this does tend to produce copycat crimes.

Why would it? How does sensationalizing a crime encourage more copycat
crimes than simply reporting it?

On 12 Jan 2005 22:18:35 -0800, wrote in
om>::

>Should we blame the press for pushing these unstable folks over the
>edge?

It would appear that the press may not be required to do any pushing:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-01-11-laser-aircraft_x.htm
Posted 1/11/2005 8:21 PM Updated 1/12/2005 2:29 PM

More reports of lasers being shot into airplane cockpits
WASHINGTON (AP) — Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said
Wednesday there have been 400 reports of lasers being beamed at
airplanes since 1990 and the Federal Aviation Administration will now
require pilots to immediately report such incidents to air traffic
controllers, who will be required to notify law enforcement officials.

The lasers can temporarily blind pilots. A cluster of incidents
received wide attention between Christmas and New Year's Day.
Authorities believe copycats who have heard news reports about the
lasers apparently have been involved in some of the more recent
incidents.

Mineta said in a news conference at the FAA's aeronautical research
center in Oklahoma City that 31 of these incidents have been reported
since Dec. 31, including one Tuesday night in Phoenix, Ariz. Nobody
was arrested in that incident, which involved a Southwest flight. The
new reporting requirements take effect Jan. 19.

....

The FBI and Homeland Security Department sent a memo to law
enforcement agencies in November saying they had evidence terrorists
have explored using lasers as weapons.

An FAA report released in June found that even the lowest-intensity
lasers temporarily impaired the vision of most of 34 pilots who were
studied in a flight simulator.

"Larry Dighera" > wrote
> It would appear that the press may not be required to do any pushing:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-01-11-laser-aircraft_x.htm
> Posted 1/11/2005 8:21 PM Updated 1/12/2005 2:29 PM
>
> More reports of lasers being shot into airplane cockpits
> WASHINGTON (AP) - Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said
> Wednesday there have been 400 reports of lasers being beamed at
> airplanes since 1990 and the Federal Aviation Administration will now
> require pilots to immediately report such incidents to air traffic
> controllers, who will be required to notify law enforcement officials.

Hello? This includes many, many, incidents around Las Vegas. At one time,
there were dozens of high power lasers sweeping the skys. It happend when
relatively cheap and very high powered Nd YAG Lasers became available. It
was a complete zoo and really was a nuisance.

The current stuff is bull****. Pilots can be idiots like anyone else. The
colour of a DPSS (or most any visible) laser is utterly unmistakable. It
looks *weird*. And, throw in a bit of paranoia and you have people seeing
them in their soup. I now feel comfortable blaming every imperfect night
landing on them. The drag is that I now will have to call the police, CSIS,
CIA, DHS, FBI, Army, Navy and NASA every time I'm unhappy with a touchdown.
Idiots.

> The lasers can temporarily blind pilots.

Not the 5 mw hand held ones at a range of miles. Idiots.

moo

"Sam O'Nella" > wrote in message
...
> Did we not learn our lesson from Tylenol?
>

I'd say the idiots that keep tuning in to Oprah, Dateline NBC, 20/20, and
all the other similar shows are more responsible than the idiots that feed
the crowds what the crowds demand.

If people could live with the possibility that they might not be the very
first person on the planet to find out what Michael Jackson or Scott
Peterson did today there would be much less of this media induced hysteria
possible.

Turn off the damn TV. When was the last time you saw something important on
TV news. I mean something where your life would have been materially
different had you not seen it. Spend the time you would have spent on TV
reading good web sites.

--

Scott

Liberals love America like OJ loved Nicole. - Ann Coulter

"tscottme" > wrote in message
...

> Turn off the damn TV. When was the last time you saw something important
on
> TV news. I mean something where your life would have been materially
> different had you not seen it.

You nailed it. Turn off the TV. It's not so much the media's fault, it's the
people who would pay attention to it. I'm not trying to say that news isn't
important, but it's not like you just *have* to know what is going on in
every corner of the world at every moment. In fact, doing so can damage the
psyche. That's because most of the world news is bad news. For most stories
to make the world news circuit, they have *got* to be bad. Watch enough of
it and pretty soon you get the feeling that the whole world is going to
hades on a handtruck.

You know, the world is like a soap opera. Nothing changes that much in two
weeks.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Sam O'Nella wrote:
>
> The issue is the people doing these acts aren't exactly mentally mature, and
> hearing about people doing this on the news gives them an idea that they
> WOULDN'T have had otherwise. The media can certainly control and be
> RESPONSIBLE for what they print.

Then I think it's great that the media are publicizing the fact that, if you
lase pilots, you might get arrested and subjected to a great deal of trouble and
expense.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

"tscottme" > wrote in message

> Turn off the damn TV. When was the last time you saw something important
> on
> TV news. I mean something where your life would have been materially
> different had you not seen it. Spend the time you would have spent on TV
> reading good web sites.

Sage. I have not watched television (with a few exceptions when travelling)
in over three years. Almost every time I read about what's going on with
the tube, I see it catering more toward the most basic human emotions.

moo

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> Sam O'Nella wrote:
>>
>> The issue is the people doing these acts aren't exactly mentally mature,
>> and
>> hearing about people doing this on the news gives them an idea that they
>> WOULDN'T have had otherwise. The media can certainly control and be
>> RESPONSIBLE for what they print.
>
> Then I think it's great that the media are publicizing the fact that, if
> you
> lase pilots, you might get arrested and subjected to a great deal of
> trouble and
> expense.

Even though you haven't harmed anyone. They might note that. Wait until
someone gets arrested while using a laser pointer to explain basic astronomy
to kids. Won't that be news!

moo

> I'm sure there's some copy cats

Did someone say copycats?
http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11925709%255E23349,00.html


--
roger
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

> Using that logic, we'd never hear about any bad news. Not that *I*
> personally would necessarily mind that, but it does seem to be the primary
> bread and butter for journalism to report bad news.

Yep. It's a consumer-driven market, and we live in a world full of
wreck-gawkers.

A publication that offers nothing but good things to say isn't taken
seriously, and finds itself with just as many critics and cynics as those
who report nothing but dirty laundry.

-gatt
(former magazine editor.)